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Posted by Jeff Shirley on November 23, 2005, 10:42 am
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> On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 12:59:42PM -0800, Padu wrote:
[snip]
> But ... I must say that I don't make PCBs myself any more when I can
> get them made professionally for so cheaply at much higher quality
> than I could ever hope to make myself.
Brian,
Don't leave us in suspense. Tell us which service you use for prototype
boards.
Thanks,
Jeff.
--
Jeff Shirley
sans-spam@mindspring.com
"Bill Gates is filthy rich, but that doesn't mean I want to be married to him."
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Posted by Joe Pfeiffer on November 23, 2005, 12:37 pm
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>
> Don't leave us in suspense. Tell us which service you use for prototype
> boards.
I'm not Brian, but I've used expresspcb.com for a couple of projects.
They have downloadable no-cost design software, and for $51 plus
shipping (I think it comes to a total of about $70) you get three
3.8x2.5 inch (exactly -- not larger, not smaller) double-sided boards
with through-plated vias. No solder mask.
They also have a variety of other services, like 4-layer boards,
silkscreen and solder mask layers, for more money.
The only thing I don't like about them is they're one of the two
reasons I have to keep Windows around.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr
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Posted by Mike Young on November 23, 2005, 8:20 pm
Please log in for more thread options > They have downloadable no-cost design software, and for $51 plus
> shipping (I think it comes to a total of about $70) you get three
> 3.8x2.5 inch (exactly -- not larger, not smaller) double-sided boards
> with through-plated vias. No solder mask.
Compared to a commercial service, making it yourself still makes sense for a
hobbyist in terms of both time and dollars. Turn-around is about an hour,
compared to easily a full week or more. Materials and consumables for that
size board cost about $2 each. Plated holes are possible, but startup cost
is likely prohibitive: roughly $150 in equipment, ink, and electrolyte.
Solder and paste masks are also possible, but startup cost is even more
prohibitive, unless you already happen to have a laser cutter.
Compared to breadboarding, custom PCBs, especially homemade ones, can still
make sense. The time and effort to run error-prone and noisy jumpers is
roughly the same as preparing and etching the board. The PCB loses out if
you want to make a quick change after the fact. OTOH, breadboarding isn't
possible if you want to use even one surface mount part.
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Posted by Joe Pfeiffer on November 23, 2005, 3:05 pm
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> > They have downloadable no-cost design software, and for $51 plus
> > shipping (I think it comes to a total of about $70) you get three
> > 3.8x2.5 inch (exactly -- not larger, not smaller) double-sided boards
> > with through-plated vias. No solder mask.
>
> Compared to a commercial service, making it yourself still makes sense
> for a hobbyist in terms of both time and dollars. Turn-around is about
> an hour, compared to easily a full week or more. Materials and
> consumables for that size board cost about $2 each. Plated holes are
> possible, but startup cost is likely prohibitive: roughly $150 in
> equipment, ink, and electrolyte. Solder and paste masks are also
> possible, but startup cost is even more prohibitive, unless you
> already happen to have a laser cutter.
Yes, rolling your own is cheaper.
The turnaround time for the company I mentioned earlier (let me
mention I'm not affliliated with the company in any way; I've just
bought some boards from them) is two days (the only way the ship is
FedEx); this is nothing compared to the design time.
And my home-made PCBs, decades ago, were complete and utter crap. I
was never able to get the etchant to take all the copper off before it
started eating through the resist.
I've seen people make good ones, and my hat is off to you if you can
get it right!
> Compared to breadboarding, custom PCBs, especially homemade ones, can
> still make sense. The time and effort to run error-prone and noisy
> jumpers is roughly the same as preparing and etching the board. The
> PCB loses out if you want to make a quick change after the fact. OTOH,
> breadboarding isn't possible if you want to use even one surface mount
> part.
I'll agree with everything you say here.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
skype: jjpfeifferjr
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Posted by Brian Dean on November 23, 2005, 10:52 pm
Please log in for more thread options On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 03:42:29PM +0000, Jeff Shirley wrote:
> Don't leave us in suspense. Tell us which service you use for
> prototype boards.
I've used both Advanced Circuits (http://www.4pcb.com) and
Imagineering (http://www.pcbnet.com) for prototypes. Both are
execellent and the costs are very reasonable. What I really like
about these services is that they offer a "prototype" service where if
your board conforms to a reasonable set of common specs, you can get
them done for a very economical price. This typically applies to
2-layer, silkscreen, plated through holes, reasonable board size, and
up to 2 oz copper. I've made a few boards that I couldn't use that
service on, but the bulk of the boards I've done match the specs of
their prototype special service.
Also, another great feature is that they both have an on-line quoting
service - enter the specs, and then get pricing on various quantities
- so you know right away what you are getting into with regard to
price. No submitting engineering files and waiting around for someone
to get back to you. Other services do this also, but the above two
are the ones that I have direct experience with. Turn-around is about
a week in each case for protos. You can get them faster, of course,
but the price generally goes up exponentially all the way to same day
turn around.
Regarding DIY PCBs, I've done the toner transfer method with mixed
artwork results as well as using photo sensitive boards and exposing
with light, fixing chemicals, etc, with execellent artwork results.
I've done both single-sided and double-sided. I found the
photographic method to be far superior than the laser printer toner
transfer, though a bit messier. In both cases, once you prepare the
materials, apply the artwork circuit to the copper clad board,
expose/heat, etc, then etch, and cleanup. Note that doing a double
sided board is doubly hard because you need to ensure good alignment
and you also have the through-hole problem. Don't forget you now need
to drill all those holes (not so easy) and then somehow deal with
through-holes (eyelets are extremely tedious and only work so-so).
After all that, you can use up the better part of a perfectly good
day. And even after all that, the results (at best) were marginal -
nothing to write home about, and in some cases, the board has to be
scrapped due to process problems.
For these reasons, I'm willing to wait a few extra days and get a
supremely professional job done with an industry quality soldermask
and silkscreen, even when I only need a handful of protos. I'm
certainly willing to pay their asking price for the 10 excellent
"proto special" boards I am guaranteed to receive from Imagineering in
a few days, as opposed to spend all day of my time and produce a
marginal one or if I'm having an off-day, maybe one for the scrap pile
and I get to do it all again the following weekend. Woops, there goes
a Saturday :-(
-Brian
--
Brian Dean
http://www.bdmicro.com/
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